Gmail * Skip Morris * ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *[neriverrunners] abs boat repair* 14 messages ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * Dan Bertko * * Wed, Jan 17, 2007 at 4:34 PM * Reply-To: neriverrunners@yahoogroups.com To: neriverrunners@yahoogroups.com I saw Jim Michaud's extensive abs hull repair on a canoe he brought to the Quaboag. If I remember correctly he chopped up some black abs plumbing pipe and dissolved it into a container of acetone. This was thinned/thickened to a consistency that could coat a well- sanded abs hull. I think Jim said that the foam layer was also abs and it was ok to sand bad hull down to this layer. Anyway, the boat made it to the take-out. I was aware that abs was a thermoplastic and that people like Suzanne Ward do plastic welding of cracks and seams with a heat-gun-and-abs- feed-rod device. The idea of solvent-melting some abs had not occurred to me. My abs boats have a variety of dings and scratches. I also still have my old Caption. The bottom of that boat oil-canned and finally cracked around the saddle on a Dead trip. I was very hard on the bottom when I was a cl2 and repeatedly "planed" the bottom on pourovers and shallows. I'm thinking of using the Caption hull as a practice boat this Spring for a hull-thickening restoration attempt. The boat is useless now so it And then to continue with the minor boat patching on my other craft. Poking around I found some more info. MEK, methyl ethyl ketone, seems to be a better solvent than acetone for abs. A car audio site had this parts fabrication thread: http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=45050 It's a long thread but nice first-timer descriptions. A followup thread was from a radio-control boat site about painting an abs hull: http://www.offshoreelectrics.com/how_to_spray_paint.htm Basically good techniques and suggested maintenance. I am thinking of buying some virgin abs resin or reground chips. Looks like black is popular but white is also listed among suppliers. Not sure if substantially better than the Home Depot abs- plus-filler plumbing pipe. Still looking. Any suggestions? Still looking at MEK vs acetone for solvent. The car guy used mustard and ketchup squeeze bottles with his acetone. Anyone want to join me when the weather warms for a boat maintenance day or two? I usually 303 the drysuit, airbags, hulls a couple of times a year too. My wood thwarts and gunnels get a fresh coat of spar varnish once a year. Dan __._,_.___ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * ccnuthmann * * Wed, Jan 17, 2007 at 7:54 PM * Reply-To: neriverrunners@yahoogroups.com To: neriverrunners@yahoogroups.com Very interesting. Let me know how you make out with the solvent thing. Conrad [Quoted text hidden] __._,_.___ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * Jim Covington * * Wed, Jan 17, 2007 at 8:06 PM * Reply-To: neriverrunners@yahoogroups.com To: neriverrunners@yahoogroups.com MEK is foul, nasty stuff. It's as good a solvent on your lungs, skin and brain cells as it is on plastic. It's worst mode of entry is through your skin. Protect yourself well with fresh air, an organic respirator and latex gloves - NOT nitrile. Nitrile gloves do poorly against MEK. [Quoted text hidden] __._,_.___ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * Jim Michaud * * Wed, Jan 17, 2007 at 9:22 PM * Reply-To: neriverrunners@yahoogroups.com To: neriverrunners@yahoogroups.com Here's the rest of the story. The bottom of my canoe was worn down to the foam so the bottom was delaminated very and spongy. Wherever the bottom was soft I drilled a ¼" dia. hole just through the first layer of ABS and squirted Gorilla Glue into the holes. I then covered the Gorilla Glue holes with a heavy weight to keep the glue from escaping as it expanded. Gorilla Glue is activated by water and since a delaminated hull is always wet all that I had to do is squirt the Gorilla Glue directly into the holes without adding water. After the entire hull was stiff again I sanded the vinyl off of the bottom wherever the vinyl was worn off. It's OK if you go a little too deep and sand into the foam core a little. I then painted the bottom with a few coats of ABS/acetone mixture. To make the ABS/acetone mixture I bought a length of 2" dia. black ABS pipe from Lowe's (don't use the white PVC pipe). I cut the pipe lengthwise and just long enough to fit into a new gallon paint can that I happen to have had. I then poured some acetone into the can. MEK would also work but acetone is cheaper, less toxic and evaporates faster. Every day I would stir the mixture and add more acetone if it was needed. About four days later the ABS was all melted and was the consistency of paint. I painted the sanded areas of the canoe hull with rather thin layers of ABS. The mixture dries by the acetone evaporating so the surface dries before the inside of painted surface. You might think that the boat is ready to paddle but the mixture may still be too soft on the inside. The surface dries quite fast and the mixture is self leveling so don't go doing a lot of brush stroke. Keep doing another layer each day until you're satisfied. Three layers should be about right. My canoe also had holes in each end so I just painted the holes with a thicker ABS mixture. I didn't bother to sand off the vinyl in these areas and so far it seems to be working out just fine. The canoe also had some cracks on the inside near the stern. I had some scrap raft material so I fixed the cracks by gluing strips of the raft material over them. I imagine that I could have just painted the cracks with the ABS mixture but I figured that the raft material would be more flexible. I'm very happy with my repair job. I might even be able to get a second year out of my canoe. Jim Michaud [Quoted text hidden] __._,_.___ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * Skip Morris * * Wed, Jan 17, 2007 at 10:21 PM * To: neriverrunners@yahoogroups.com I've been told by the manufacturer (Spartech) that MEK is the way to go. But they also had a caution, using the ABS putty (or paint) method can weaken or destroy the vulcanization that holds the various layers of the hull together. I've been meaning to give it a try. I have a couple boats that could use this method. So yes, I'll join you this spring sometime for a repair party. You can also weld ABS. Jim Booker out in the Berkshire Valley used to do this (he now lives in North Carolina). Before he moved he taught a few of us to weld. For info on welding look at: http://www.mv.com/users/morris/paddling/boat-repair.html /Skip ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * Jim Michaud * * Wed, Jan 17, 2007 at 11:24 PM * Reply-To: neriverrunners@yahoogroups.com To: neriverrunners@yahoogroups.com The first time that I saw a ABS repair was at the Rogue River in 2000. The boater told me that he used MEK to melt the ABS. The C-Boats internet forum recently had a big discussion on this repair technique and they all mentioned acetone. I would have used MEK if I had some but I just happened to have a gallon of acetone in my cellar that I use for fiberglassing, etc. I think that it was Jim Booker that welded my Old Town Tripper back in the late 70s. I had run a log dam in Canada and landed on a large spike that was pointing straight up. It tore a large hole in the bottom of my canoe. The weld fixed the hole but the patch was stiff. This caused large cracks to form along the edges of the weld due to the boat flexing. Jim Michaud ----- Original Message ----- *From:* Skip Morris *To:* neriverrunners@yahoogroups.com [Quoted text hidden] __._,_.___ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * Dan Bertko * * Thu, Jan 18, 2007 at 9:57 AM * Reply-To: neriverrunners@yahoogroups.com To: neriverrunners@yahoogroups.com Thanks for the heads up on the gloves. Nitrile gloves were recommended for the acetone. I plan on doing the repair work outside to help with the fumes. I've used one of the disposable organic respirators before. It was recommended for the acetone. I'll be sure to use one for MEK. The painting article recommended Krylon paint. I've used a Krylon formulated for plastics before. The first time I boated two days after painting and found it had not finished hardening. The painting article suggested a warm water bath for the spray can and a light first coat to help adhesion and second coat smoothing. [Quoted text hidden] __._,_.___ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * Bill Blatner * * Thu, Jan 18, 2007 at 8:46 PM * Reply-To: neriverrunners@yahoogroups.com To: neriverrunners@yahoogroups.com Hi Skip, I have a Spark, which, as you know, is made of Royalite. An esquif rep told me, correctly, that there is no vinyl layer. I read your site on Whitewater boats and plastics and it says Royalite is an ABS foam core sandwiched between layers of AES. So now I'm wondering if the ABS pipe/acetone slurry will bind to the AES. I'd like to put a coat on where I've worn it down to the yellow layer beneath the camo, i.e., before I get all the way down to the foam core. The inside of the hull has a gray layer that looks like the usual vinyl, but the two part urethane adhesive Tom Foster used to attach the brackets for the leg strap rings and floatation webbing (thinking we were attaching to vinyl)have popped quite a few times. I replaced them using ABS pipe adhesive on the advice of Brian Shields, a very experienced boater from Ontario that I met at MKC. I've broken two fastech buckles on the leg straps while rolling, but the ABS glue on the brackets has not let go. So maybe AES behaves enough like ABS? Any thoughts? Any contacts at Spartech I could discuss it with? Bill --- In neriverrunners@yahoogroups.com , "Skip Morris" [Quoted text hidden] __._,_.___ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * Skip Morris * * Thu, Jan 18, 2007 at 9:46 PM * To: wjblatner@hotmail.com Hi Bill, My notes say that the contact at Spartech is Leroy Boser. I also have Marsha Schaddelee written down, but if I recall correctly she was Customer Service and Leroy was the engineer. They're at the Warsaw plant, 800-456-9407, 574-370-2003. The main number I have is also 800-477-4338. BTW: This info is probably a couple years old. Please don't give out the names/numbers to the whole list. Spartech has been good so far and tolerated asking a bunch of questions, so I don't want everyone and his brother calling them up and making them decide we're not worth talking to. Also please let me know what you find out and I'll add it to the web page. Normally I'd stay away from PVC adhesive. I'd be afraid it would weaken the vulcanization of the layers. I use the HH-66 from the place in Acton (which is the best vinyl cement I know of.) You might ask the Spartech guys this as well. /Skip [Quoted text hidden] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * William Blatner * * Fri, Jan 19, 2007 at 10:38 PM * To: skipper.morris@gmail.com Skip, Thanks for the information and contacts. I'll be discreet and let you know what I find out. I've had no luck getting anyone at Esquif to respong to queries like this. I was lucky enough to speak to some reps directly, but they didn't seem to have really solid information. Best, Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * William Blatner * * Wed, Jan 24, 2007 at 12:29 PM * To: skipper.morris@gmail.com Hi Skip, Attached are notes from my conversation today with Lee Boser at Spartech. Apparently he actually makes the canoes for a number of canoe companies. The company reps were very nice, as was Lee, though I agree that we shouldn't bombard them with phone calls. If my notes raise any questions for you, let me know. It might jar something from the conversation that I failed to include. [Quoted text hidden] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * Skip Morris * * Thu, Jan 25, 2007 at 1:07 AM * To: William Blatner Hi Bill, I think you mean "he makes the plasic sheets for a number of canoe companies", not that he actually makes the canoes. AFAIK, Spartech is the only manufacturer of plastic sheets used to manufacture all the canoes made in North America. Sounds like you had a nice conversation, I have a few questions though: Did he say what chemical R84 is? I thought it was just another type of vinyl (similar to PVC), but never confirmed that. If ABS cement bonds to it then it is probably an ABS plastic instead of a PVC plastic. I wouldn't want to use a 2-part epoxy. They dry much too stiff and make the hull resistant to flexing. That eventually causes cracks. And "According to Lee, ABS pipe adhesive will work", did he actually say "adhesive"? As far as I know, all the commercial ABS bonding chemicals are cements and not adhesives. You said you're using ABS cements, which ones? BTW: I know Oatey sells an "ABS-to-PVC Transistion Cement" which really is just a mixture of ABS cement and PVC cement. In both cases they are mostly ABS or PVC dissolved in MEK and some other stuff (like acetone). Interesting idea on the urethane. Are you up for calling him back and getting more info? I'd really like to figure out what he meant here (and then go buy some and try it out). thanks for doing the legwork /Skip [Quoted text hidden] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * William Blatner * * Thu, Jan 25, 2007 at 10:25 PM * To: skipper.morris@gmail.com Hi Skip, The woman I spoke to in Warsaw, who put me in touch with Lee, said that he actually made the boats for several companies, including Esquif. That seemed strange to me, especially when he didn't recognize my reference to the Spark and needed some convincing that it was made of Royalite, not Royalex. I think you're right. It's always a little hard to think that fast, trying to get to the point and not be a pain in the neck. R84 is not a vinyl. I believe Lee said it was APBS. This may be Acrylonitrile polybutadiene styrene, instead of just acrylonitrile butadiene styrene, but I'm not sure. Here's what I found on Wykapedia: Acrylonitrile butadiene styrene, or ABS, (chemical formula (C8H8· C4H6·C3H3N)x) is a common thermoplastic used to make light, rigid, molded products such as pipes, golf club heads (used for its good shock absorbance), automotive body parts, wheel covers, enclosures, protective head gear, and toys including LEGO bricks[1]. In plumbing, ABS pipes are the black pipes (PVC pipes are white). It is a copolymer made by polymerizing styrene and acrylonitrile in the presence of polybutadiene. The proportions can vary from 15% to 35% acrylonitrile, 5% to 30% butadiene and 40% to 60% styrene. The result is a long chain of polybutadiene criss-crossed with shorter chains of poly(styrene-co-acrylonitrile). The nitrile groups from neighbouring chains, being polar, attract each other and bind the chains together, making ABS stronger than pure polystyrene. The styrene gives the plastic a shiny, impervious surface. The butadiene, a rubbery substance, provides resilience even at low temperatures. ABS can be used between −25 °C and 60 °C. It may just be in the proportions. If that's the case, it would explain why it bonds to the dissolved ABS pipe and the ABS cement. I guess I thought adhesive and cement were the same thing. You know - something you use to stick two things together...but I'm learning! The cement I used was the black stuff you get at True Value Hardware in the plumbing department - not the clearish PVC cement for the white PVC pipe. I'll have a look at the label and see if there's anything more specific and let you know, but I specifically got the black cement for ABS, not the other. Lee's lack of familiarity with the issues faced by WW boats reinforces your point that he probably just makes the sheets and not the boats. He seems to know the chemistry. I'm curious about the urethane as well. I will try him back on that and let you know. By the way, Esquif has been zero help on this. I can't even get them to return an email. Have you had any contact or luck with them? They're pioneering some great new materials, like twin-tex, but without support on these kinds of issues, who wants to fork over that kind of money and be a tester for them? Bill >From: "Skip Morris" > >To: "William Blatner" > >Subject: Re: [neriverrunners] Re: abs boat repair >Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 01:07:24 -0500 [Quoted text hidden] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * Skip Morris * * Thu, Jan 25, 2007 at 10:55 PM * To: William Blatner Interesting. You might also confirm that the R84 is APBS (and ask exactly what it is) instead of ABS. Perhaps ask whether PVC or ABS cement would be better. Once you know the chemical, I can call the people that make the HH-66 vinyl cement and ask them about other uses. I really doubt that Lee is familiary with different boat designs. He just knows that company XX orders sheets YYY and ZZZ with different properties. I'm not surprised Esquif isn't helping. It's a small company, only Jacques (the owner) really knows the whole story. When I stopped by the factory last summer I found out a bunch; but getting info over the phone or getting them to answer email is very hard. good luck. /Skip [Quoted text hidden] ------------------------------------------------------------------------